-------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlene Sherman-Ragatz" To: <•••@••.•••> Subject: Re: Ch. 1: THE EVOLUTION OF CIVILIZATION Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:50:30 -0400 Dear Richard, I've never written to you before, but I just wanted to say how much I admire your work and appreciate what you do. You have a style of writing that makes what could be confusing, convoluted issues clear and comprehensible. Thanks for being a point of illumination in a dark world. ----------- Dear Charlene, I appreciate your comments very much. It's not so much that I need praise, although all of us need a bit of that from time to time so that our ego doesn't drag us down. The more important thing is to know that the work I'm doing is worthwhile - that's fuel to a writer. cheers, rkm -------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Barger" To: •••@••.••• Subject: Comments on your Intro & Chapt. 1 Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:20:36 -0400 I am sorry I didn't get around to reading your Intro. until today. It wasn't until after I read your Chapt.1 that I discovered I had missed the Intro. I enjoyed them both. It feels to me like you are on the right track (but that may be because your approach is so similar to mine: seeking diverse viewpoints & staying open to revising mine). I have no suggestions for the Intro primarily because it seems to me to a very personal (& inspiring) statement. But for Chapt. 1 I'd like to suggest a slightly different perspective. You seem to be buying into a fairly prevalent assumption that our genes 'control' our behavior. I see them as creating our potential for a wide variety of behaviors, including the self-destructive behaviors that result from arrogance (which allows us to consider short-term objectives more important than the 'big picture' which must always consider both long-term & wide-spread consequences). As I read your evolution, I think I spotted the arising of arrogance as the trigger for the paradigm shift to 'dominion over'. The early inability to travel far & wide quickly probably obscured the important awareness that we really are all interconnected & that everything we do to others 'comes home to roost' eventually. I call 'arrogance' our 'only' enemy because it allows us to overlook our interconnectedness & our shortsightedness. It is the 'over-ride switch' that is still getting us into trouble. [A lot of the 'stuff' I have on my website deals with this. I hope you have a chance to check it out.] Keep up the good work. I'm a zgt fan of yours! Rex Barger, Hamlton, Ontario http://www.hwcn.org/~aq680/ -------------------------- Dear Rex, Thanks for your comments. It's always useful to hear from someone else who is seeking to figure things out. I'm a bit surprised that you perceive me as thinking that genes control our behavior. I pointed out that the incredible diversity of human cultures indicates that the effect of inheritance has only limited impact. I fully agree that our genes create the "potential for a wide variety of behaviors". I'm not sure how more plain I could make that in the book, but I'll try. But it is also important to acknowledge that we do have a genetic inheritance and that it does have some consequences. And I think it's important to find out whatever we can about that genetic inheritance. I'm not sure what your point is about "arising of arrogance". Doesn't arrogance toward nature amount to the same thing as assuming dominion over nature? Also, I can't go along with you very far as regards your perspective on interconnectedness. The relationship among neighboring tribes was typically a territorial one. Tribes defended their territory, and they didn't usually venture onto another's territory except as a band of warriors intent on stealing horses, wives, or some such. This was a healthy thing. Just as with other predator species, territoriality was critical to economic survival. Interconnectedness is not about the lion laying down with the lamb. That is not how nature works. The Hindu symbol for life is a serpent swallowing its own tail. This symbolizes "life eating life" - the food chain. In the case of the Sioux Nation of plains Indians, they eventually evolved beyond warring territoriality - but only as regards other tribes in the same Nation. This change was in relatively recent times, and they still know the name of the individual leader who brought the Nation together into a spirit of dialog and cooperation. Their model of inter-tribe cooperation is one that I will be referring to later in my book. It represents a breakthrough in human social relations. thanks again, rkm -------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:29:38 GMT To: •••@••.••• Subject: Re: rkm's new book: Introduction From: Jan Dunbrack Richard, For over a decade I have been asking a very simple question to a wide variety of educated folk and have yet to come up with an adequate answer. What is most curious is none of the individuals had ever pondered this question on their own. Moreover, no book or person has done so and, to me, one can not begin to fathom how things got to be how they are (your first section) without some thinking about this issue: In the world of minting money who gets it for free?? In other words, how is the money laundered? This money that costs pennies to make when compared to the multitude to spend. ---<snip>--- My speculation is that the minted money is not only "free" but earmarked as a loan so that the benefactors not only get the principle but hard earned interest as well!!!!! What a scam!!!!!! It was curious that when the new money was put in circulation that, to my knowledge anyway, there was never any accounting of the numbers of denominations with the new faces put into circulation or how etc. And it is always tremendously hilarious when the gods in power pronounce that inflation is nebulous when we all know that it takes so much more to purchase anything since the gold standard was removed and "bogus" money hit the airways..... Anyway, would love to get your take on this, just one of many such questions/comments I have stored up in this reality of mine. I have tried writing etc. (Transcending Reality on title) yet (smile) always end in a complexity meant to stymie us all intentionally, I do believe. Your friend, Jan Dunbrack ------------- Dear Jan, I think the mechanism is rather clear, and you've got your finger close to it. Think about what happens when you (or some corporation) takes out a loan from a bank. The bank grants the loan, puts the money in your account - but is not required to have enough reserves to cover their outstanding loans. In other words, when a bank loans money it is creating money out of nothing. The part about printing currency is a detail. That doesn't really create money, it just gives us tokens to exchange for the money already put in existence by loans. Boudewijn Wegerif write a lot about this, and his website is: http://www.whatmatters.nu rkm -------------------------------------------------------- From: "ecopilgrim " To: <•••@••.•••> Subject: RE: Ch. 1: THE EVOLUTION OF CIVILIZATION Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:03:23 -0700 Rkm, Would like your permission to fwd this to several lists which are participating in dialogue at a very deep level and from which one or two might respond with comment after review. The lists are: awpd, consiliencep, fixgov, gatherthewomen, and gotocode pink. In addition I have a personal e-list of about 30 concerned people. Overall I feel it is very well written and congratulate you on undertaking such a detailed venture. There are a couple comments, but I would like to review it again and then make them. One of the things that I can honestly tell you is that some of my reviewers will heartily disagree with you on the evolution of civilization and will insist that you must begin with Atlantis and the Annanuki as the only valid beginning point. I have been astounded at how many women I've encountered on women only lists who ascribe to this view of history; however, they feel intimidated by the overwhelmingly male point of view being published and tend to keep their feelings to themselves. Also, do you have an outline of chapters you could publish for us? I'm curious as to whether you are expanding on some of the historical points made in Chapter One in additional chapters. Peace, love and light Eco ------------ Dear Eco, I encourage people to forward my material - that's what it's for. I've updated my signature to make that clear. I look forward to your feedback after you've reviewed the material again. I'll include something about Atlantis in the next draft. The point is that even if civilization started a few thousand years earlier than 13,000 years ago, that would still be negligible on the bio-evolutionary time scale. I don't have an outline - writing the book is an adventure in creative discovery. cheers, rkm -------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brian Hill" <•••@••.•••> To: <•••@••.•••> Subject: Re: Ch. 1: THE EVOLUTION OF CIVILIZATION Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:15:30 -0700 Organization: Institute for Cultural Ecology I did my Master in archeology on this and will reply as soon as time permits. ---------- Brian - thanks. I'm really glad to see so much feedback coming in - rkm -------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:02:15 +0100 (BST) From: ROBERT WARD Subject: Re: Ch. 1: THE EVOLUTION OF CIVILIZATION To: •••@••.••• Richard Hi. A few thoughts FWTW. Dear Robert, Very nice to hear from you. You are clearly well-informed on these matters and you bring up many useful points. I'm going to respond to your contribution in a different format than usual - as a point-by point, back-and-forth dialog. This is how I respond to private correspondence, and it provides an illustration of how my learning quest has typically progressed. rkm "We know quite a bit about how these pre-agricultural human bands lived from archeological evidence and from observations of surviving hunter-gatherer societies as they have come into contact with civilization." I wonder if we know as much as we think. Pre-agricultural societies don't leave much in the way of remains and usually nothing at all in the way of records. Our knowledge of them depends an awful lot on our preconceptions of how we think they behaved, which is not necessarily the same thing. As you say, we rely on observations of modern hunter-gatherer societies to guide us. But we mustn't forget that just as agricultural and technological societies have evolved over time, "hunter-gatherer" societies will also have evolved. It doesn't seem quite safe to assume that, human nature being what it is, human society, however technology dependent remains static over long periods of time. Environmental and population pressures (for instance) will require adaptive change to lifestyle and location. Certainly it is necessary to avoid referring to our preconceptions when trying to figure out the nature of pre-agricultural societies. If I was guilty of that in my material, then please point out where. If I wasn't so guilty, then I'm afraid your point is somewhat irrelevant to our current discussion. Yes, hunter-gatherer societies evolved and changed over time, particularly when they migrated, and I'll include something explicit about that in the next draft, due to your feedback. But despite such changes, and despite the great diversity in such societies which I did note, I still stand by my characterization of those elements which seem, based on the evidence, to be common to all such societies. That evidence has been found all over the globe in surviving indigenous societies, and there is much useful archeological evidence despite the impermanence of early dwelling structures. I've found the writings of Joseph Campbell and Jared Diamond particularly useful in this regard, along with more traditional anthropological material, such as Peter Farb's, "Man's Rise [sic] to Civilization". Think (for instance) of Polynesian societies, which tend to be thought of as being "close to nature" and "noble savage" type cultures - when in fact they were highly complex, highly variable, and exploited available technology to a remarkable degree. The other point I would make about observing a modern hunter-gatherer society is that at the point they make contact with other societies it is often because they are under significant stress themselves - think for instance of native tribes in the Amazon basin. Complexity, variability, and exploitation of technology did characterize pre-agricultural societies, and again you've prompted me to update my draft. But I never denied that they had those characteristics, and this point doesn't affect the conclusions I reached. It is important not to confuse hunter-gatherer societies with agricultural societies, such as the Incas, Aztecs, and the Polynesians. Those societies were agricultural and they exhibited the same sort of developments that I attributed to the experiences in the Fertile Crescent and China. The wars between the Hawaiian chiefs were pretty much the same as early wars in the Middle East. It is definitely possible to reach wrong conclusions by studying indigenous societies after they have been warped by contact with civilization. That would be like deducing animal behavior from studying animals in a zoo. The sources I have used have been careful to avoid drawing such conclusions. There have been plenty of case studies where the tribes were still following their traditions from before contact. rkm> "They were based on small, autonomous, territorial, politically egalitarian, sustainable, self-sufficient groups - and they had elaborate cultural rules and strong beliefs about the world and their place in it." Again, possibly need to be cautious about the implications of this. Hunter-gatherer (and early agrarian) societies were certainly very more self-sufficient than modern urban man, but that doesn't mean they didn't have complex societies and interactions with other groups. The Ituri and Twa people of central Africa for instance have ostensibly simple cultures but actually maintain a close interdependency with neighbouring agrarian cultures. Complexity I've already responded to. I don't know of any societies anytime in history that have been "simple". Your point about interdependence is a good one and thanks for the reference to specific tribes. I will take out "self-sufficient". That is a substantive change, thanks. I did know that, but got sloppy! I wonder how far also it is safe to describe them as "politically egalitarian". The word "politically" itself is awkward; it derives of course from the Greek "polis", a city. So even to think of or describe a pre-urban, pre-"civilisation" society (by which I mean simply a society that does not live in cities or permanent settled communities) in "political" terms immediately introduces preconceptions which may be inappropriate. One needs to be careful with etymology. Just because a word started out with a certain meaning does not imply that its meaning hasn't generalized over time - in fact that is what usually happens with words. And in the case of "polis", I imagine that comes from the more primitive "poly" (many). A city is a place with "many" people. In that sense, we can see politics as being the way "many" people deal with their collective issues, city or not. Nonetheless, you are right that use of the word requires qualification. Thanks. "Egalitarian" likewise - I wonder whether a hunter-gatherer society would regard all its members as being "equal" in terms of social status; surely this would depend on factors such as ability and experience. The ace hunter (I suspect) would be listened to more than the klutz of the tribe. That's the way in fact hierarchical structures develop. Again, thanks for pointing out a needed clarification. Egalitarian does not mean "everyone equal", rather it refers to a lack of authority structures. In indigenous societies people gained respect from their deeds and their wisdom rather than because they managed to grab on to a position of power and authority. Contrary to their portrayal in Hollywood movies, Native American chiefs did not have authority. They could not order tribe members to do anything. This changed somewhat after the invasion of the Europeans, because the Indians were forced to emulate some the European models in order to defend themselves. It was a major shift when all the Lakotas empowered Sitting Bull to be their military leader. That was a bit like when Hannibal caused the Romans to give up their Triumvarite in order to fight him more effectively. rkm> "At the same time, the human species is characterized by a unique cultural flexibility, triggered entirely by environmental factors. An infant can be moved from one culture to any other and it will fully adapt." Humans are highly adaptable to be sure, but I wonder whether it is unique to our species? Chimpanzees and dolphin (also highly intelligent mammals) have also been demonstrated to have culture. Their ability to be trained and interact socially with human cultures well outside their "natural" state also demonstrates a very high degree of adaptability. A more telling (IMO) factor is human ability to record and pass on experience reliably, so that not only do individuals learn from their own experiences, they are able to pass it on not only to their immediate listeners but to others possibly widely separated in time and space. (Much of the tragedy of human history is our inability/unwillingness to do this!) Coupled with this, and an extension of it, is human ability to do "what if" analyses and extrapolations on our experiences. Interesting stuff, but it was not my intention to characterize what was unique about humans in comparison to other animals. Indeed, I can substitute "amazing cultural flexibility" for "unique cultural flexibility" with no affect on the rest of the presentation. I could argue that humans are unique in the degree of flexibility, but I won't bother since it's irrelevant to my theses. rkm> "The spark that ignited the Agricultural Revolution was not technological - it was not about a new agricultural invention." Depends rather what you mean by "technological". The birth of agriculture 8,000 years ago or so was driven by the discovery that if you planted seeds and looked after them they would grow, saving you the bother of going to look for food. To do that effectively needed tools of some sort - even if it was only a pointed stick to make holes in the ground. That in turn led to the growth of specialisation - you got individuals who were good at knowing what seeds to plant where, when and how, others who were good at making and improving pointed sticks and so forth ... the rest is History. Whoa! You're expressing exactly the pre-Quinn view that I was arguing against. If you're going to do that, please provide some evidence! Do you really think no one knew about seeds before the agricultural revolution? Think about it... they gather grains and bring them back to camp to eat. Some spill on the ground. Next spring plants come up. Of course people put 2 and 2 together. Similarly dogs were domesticated long before the agricultural revolution. The revolution came when cultures decided to exploit that kind of knowledge in a systematic way. Once they did that, it took no great breakthrough to decide to use sticks to plant seeds. Even chimps use tools of that sophistication. What may be termed the second great Agricultural Revolution in the 18th century, that in turn fueled and was fueled by, the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century was very much technology dependent. It was driven by the discovery that machines could do the work of labourers. Look at the history of the Enclosure Movement in England in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the development of industrialised agriculture in the 18th and 19th centuries. Of course. Once exploitation became the paradigm, then the rest of history was a matter of technology and exploitation fueling one another. The point I'm concerned about is the origin of the exploitation paradigm. rkm> "Once people adopted the dominion myth" True that obsession with status and authority is the bane of our society. But in fact people are usually quite content for someone else to take charge - and be blamed when it goes pear-shaped. Don't forget that part of the "Adam and Eve" myth cycle was linked to the concept of human sacrifice and the expulsion of the fertility god ("Adam") into the wilderness. Similar themes appear in other mythologies. I'm not sure what your point is here. OK, now let's review this dialog, because it's typical of hundreds of dialogs I've been involved in. At one level, we appear to be bickering over minor points in typical academic-debate style, and we both tend to show off little bits of knowledge whenever we can, sometimes straying off the main discussion. At another level, these minor points are important - on them hangs pivotal parts of our perspectives. And it's fun to duel via trivia! On the one hand, I've attempted to refute nearly every point you made, as regards my main theses. On the other hand you've prompted me to make some seven clarifications to my presentation, and you brought up one substantive point, about the interdependence of some neighboring tribes. So for me this has been very useful, though mostly in my presentation, which is in some sense just as important as the main content. The question now is whether or not we have more to learn from one another. It would be easy to fall into an attack-defend mode where we keep repeating ourselves. That wouldn't be useful to share with the list and neither of us would be likely to gain anything other than a refinement of our rhetorical skills. Further learning can happen only if one or both of us begins to question his own hypotheses and assumptions. So far, you haven't said anything that leads me to do that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that situation is mutual. In any case, I look forward to your future comments. best regards, rkm -- ============================================================ If you find this material useful, you might want to check out our website (http://cyberjournal.org) or try out our low-traffic, moderated email list by sending a message to: •••@••.••• You are encouraged to forward any material from the lists or the website, provided it is for non-commercial use and you include the source and this disclaimer. Richard Moore (rkm) Wexford, Ireland _____________________________ "...the Patriot Act followed 9-11 as smoothly as the suspension of the Weimar constitution followed the Reichstag fire." - Srdja Trifkovic There is not a problem with the system. The system is the problem. Faith in ourselves - not gods, ideologies, leaders, or programs. _____________________________ "Zen of Global Transformation" home page: http://www.QuayLargo.com/Transformation/ QuayLargo discussion forum: http://www.QuayLargo.com/Transformation/ShowChat/?ScreenName=ShowThreads cj list archives: http://cyberjournal.org/cj/show_archives/?lists=cj newslog list archives: http://cyberjournal.org/cj/show_archives/?lists=newslog _____________________________ Informative links: http://www.globalresearch.ca/ http://www.MiddleEast.org http://www.rachel.org http://www.truthout.org http://www.zmag.org http://www.co-intelligence.org ============================================================
