rn> dialog re: ‘left and right together…’


Richard Moore

From: Morgan <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: cj#1137,rn> 'left and right together, we shall not be moved...'
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:07:54 +0100

12 Oct 2000 rkm wrote:
    As I explain in the letter below, I believe that the key to
    movement success will be the coming together of grass-roots
    people and groups from the left and right.

Much as I enjoy your articles, I think you've flipped on
this one! :)

The factor you don't seem to have taken into consideration
is that the 'right' mindset is _biologically_ different to
the 'left' mindset - at least from my and many others
experiences in the public political arena. Once into their
thirties, most folk have become entrenched in pursuing their
very different lifestyles. The underlying and fundamental
differences being the 'right' put property and possessions
first and only think about their own and their families
well-being against all-comers, regardless, whereas the
'left' start off thinking about everyone and end up trying
to control who and what they can ;-)

A better approach, IMO, would be to ditch these ancient
crumbling semiotics altogether and just continue appealing
to 'people', young ones at that, at the grass roots level,
in an attempt to dissolve the divisiveness. But you're never
going to turn a 30+ redneck into a tree-hugger!

http://www.environment.org.uk/activist/ for a cohesive set
of links exposing the obscene injustices rife in today's
corporate climate. Campaigning for a retrospective
moratorium on mergers, worldwide.


Dear Morgan,

Thaks for your kind words about my articles.

I'm afraid I can't go along with this theory about
'biological difference'.  I think it is true that many
people question their assumptions less and less as they get
more into their life groove, but this can be explained more
by habit than by a presumption of an irreversible biological
transformation.  I've seen many people seriously modify
their perspectives later in life when they came into contact
with other ways of looking at things, or when their
accumulated life wisdom began to kick into gear.

Neither can I accept the stereotypical images of left and
right that you offer.  It is in fact these kinds of
stereotypes which keep us divided as a society.  We concoct
(or accept from the media) a 'mythical other' and then
convince ourselves that such really exists.  I have many
friends and relatives on the the 'right', and most of them
are the most generous, sharing, community-minded people you
could hope to come across.  And I know liberal-minded
yuppies who more concerned with their flash cars and cell
phones than they are 'thinking about everyone'.  Stereotypes
are counter productive to mutual understanding and

As for ditching "these ancient crumbling semiotics
altogether" - that is precisely what I'm suggesting.  The
categories aren't real.  At one time they represented
different classes - workers on the left and bosses on the
right - but that original meaning has been, as you say
'crumbling' into history.  The categories are now maintained
by the kind of sterotypes you offer, such as the 'redneck',
who is presumably racist, small-minded, uneducated,
xenophobic, etc., etc.  The way we ditch these 'ancient
semiotics' is not by clinging to our sterotypes, but by
actually engaging the 'other' and finding out what they're
really about.

It is ironic that you choose "turning a 30+ redneck into a
tree-hugger" as your example of an impossibility, since that
is precisely the kind of transformation that's been
happening recently in parts of the American labor movement. 
Not that loggers are likely to embrace the _term 'tree
hugger', but they are beginning to realize that the same
corporations that are eliminating their jobs are also
destroying the environment.  In Seattle union members
marched beside environmentalists, and the two groups found
their common interests ran deep.  They learned, through 
collaboration, that their stereotypes were bogus. This is 
the kind of thing we need to see a lot more of. (Note the last
posting below, from Brian Hill, re/ ways in which people are
beginning to break down the timeworn categories.)


Btw> If anyone has the latest Sierra magazine, let me know.  I'd 
appreciate a copy of the "Redneck Manifesto" mentioned in the 
posting from Brian, after this next one.

From: •••@••.•••
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:01:53 -0700
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard K. Moore" <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: cj#1137,rn> 
    'left and right together, we shall not be moved...'

How nauseating to even suggest that we consort with
fascists. I suggest you cease and desist from this
anti-human and progressive tact immediately.

Sincerely,   Michael Givel


Dear Michael,

I have a suspicion your remark may be toungue in cheek, but I'll 
respond as if you're serious for the sake of discussion.

When I say "the key to movement success will be the coming
together of grass-roots people and groups from the left and
right", the critical phrase in the sentence is 
'grass-roots'.  We're talking about your friends, neighbors,
and co-workers, not fascists.  Among stereotypes, you're
offering a more extreme version than those offered by Morgan
above.  Your counterpart on the right thinks of you as a 
'liberal conspirator trying to force godless communism on
America using UN forces who are practicing right now in the
U.S. wilderness with their black helicopters'.   Those
attracted by the darkest stereotypes exist on both sides.

The real fascists are those who cater to people's
mythologies and use it manipulate them into supporting
extermist elite objectives.  While Hitler appealed to racist
sentiment, the fascists of today speak with a liberal tongue.
It is 'human rights' which justified the 78-day blitzkrieg
against the people of Serbia, not 'lebensraum' or 'national
pride', or even old-fashioned 'American interests'.  In both cases,
the real objectives was the economic exploitation of resources and
populations - in Hitler's case those of Russia, and in NATO's case
those of the Balkans.  That's what fascism is really about.


From: "Brian Hill" <•••@••.•••>
To: [list suppressed]
Subject: Re: [CIA-DRUGS] Environmentalists Against Gore
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 07:15:56 -0700


The other night on TV this ... Maher comedian from
Politically Incorrect said,"the only difference between the
Republicans and Democrats is that more benevolent
corporations finance the Democrats." Both parties are mere
instruments of big corporations.

Neither party cares about the little people - that's why we
say that corporations rule, and its time we take back our

I don't know if I told you, but for a Masters in archeology
I specialized in the evolution of civilizations, and I found
that they rise and fall just like any other part of nature,
and man has yet to alter this natural process.  Anyway, the
period of cultural evolution we are in now is that we are
changing from a centralized to local foci of power.  The
so-called paradigm shift will manifest in a new florescence
of local cultures.  The bad side is that Russian is ahead of
us already in disintegrating, and chaos is prevalent.  We
should take note of the dysfunctionality of the present rule
by corporations and do our best to build localization. 
Below is how some are suggesting that the grass roots try
working together.  Because if we don't start working
together democratically we'll end up like Russia - dead meat
for the IMF/WB vultures to pluck.

Brian Hill

(recent statements about grass roots left, grass roots right 

(1)  Hi Brian, [This is from one who has much experience
with the so-called Eugene Anarchists] How's it going?  Things
are pretty good here, considering. (The trial for my friends
is in about three weeks and that's really fucking scary, but
if it wasn't for that things would be going great.  If you
haven't seen the latest issue of Sierra magazine, get a
copy!  It has Fall Creek on the cover, and a really positive
article about the [tree] sit and the movement. Have you read
"The Redneck Manifesto" yet?  By Jim Goad, a portland
writer, if you don't have a copy you need to buy about
twelve and start giving them away, you're going to shit your
pants when you read it!! It's THAT good! Anyway, hope you're
well.  I'm around until mid-November, though I might go up
to Portland sometime in there.  Let me know if you're back
in these parts before then, would be good to get together
with you and Jeff before I leave. See ya! Chris




As I explain in the letter below, I believe that the key to
movement success will be the coming together of grass-roots
people and groups from the left and right.  We need also to

---<snip - forward of earlier rn posting>---


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chase <•••@••.•••>
To: [list suppressed]
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000 14:37
Subject: Fw: [CIA-DRUGS] Environmentalists Against Gore

Maybe we are going to vote for the wrong guy, I didn't know
Al Gore, the kiddies pal was helping us out so much.
Everybody should send him a letter thanking him for
supporting logging and mining and agriculture/ranching. I
feel so much better now knowing Al is on our side. Vote for
Bush and go broke in twenty years. Vote for Gore, he can do
it in four. Kind of nice seeing a little division in the
enviro camp.......................Chuck Chase

Is Al Gore an environmentalist?  Attached is a statement
from 61 evironmental leaders from 18 states, including David
Brower, elder statesman of the environmental movement,
released in July 2000. This statement was read twice today
at Gore HQ and handed to staff at the HQ.

Santa Barbara Earth First!

Environmental Leaders Announce The Formation of
Environmentalists Against Gore
Jul 21 '00

JULY 21, 2000

9:00 AM

Environmental Leaders Announce The Formation of
Environmentalists Against Gore

- July 21 -
Sixty-one environmental leaders from 18 states announced
today the formation of ENVIRONMENTALISTS AGAINST GORE, and
urged people who care about protecting America's environment
to listen to their conscience and vote for anyone but
Democratic candidate Al Gore.

"Gore is getting the endorsement of some national
environmental groups only because they are so afraid of
George Bush, and so intimidated by the Gore campaign's
where-else-can-you-go attitude," said Tim Hermach, one of
the organizers of Environmentalists Against Gore.

"Vice President Gore has a long record of making campaign
promises about protecting America's natural heritage and
then breaking his promise every time one of his political
supporters wants to do something that would damage or
destroy our forests, rivers, and streams, oceans, even our
National Parks," Hermach added.

"If George W. Bush wins the election, then at least we could
expect the national environmental community to really fight
for tougher pollution enforcement and genuine protection of
our living life-support system," said David Brower, another
founder of Environmentalists Against Gore.

"From Alaska to the Everglades, New Jersey to California,
the Vice President talks about being an environmentalist,
but he's sold out American citizens, workers, taxpayers and
the environment more times than we can count. He sides with
clear-cutting timber barons, big sugar, big oil and real
estate speculators over forests and watersheds, parks and
wildlife. And we lose those fights because when Al Gore
sells out, national environmental groups come to his aide,
claiming the problem lies somewhere else, with Congress or
federal agencies.  But we all know the buck stops at the
White House."

All the environmental leaders supporting the organization
released this statement:

"Many of our members support Ralph Nader, and others believe
that even having George W. Bush in the White House, under
the eye of an energized environmental community, will lead
to better protection for nature and wildlife than we can
expect from Al Gore. We've seen Gore turn his back on the
people of Appalachia while mountains and streams are
illegally destroyed by strip miners. We've seen Gore talk
about the importance of preserving our forest heritage while
refusing to stop cutting it down.

He is increasing the logging of what's left of our publicly
owned native and old-growth national forests and monuments
as we speak. Al Gore talks about the catastrophic threat of
global warming, yet shows very little leadership to stop it.
We've seen him talk about fighting sprawl while he's
promoting sleazy real estate deals that would move
industrial jobs away from urban Miami onto farmland between
two National Parks. We've heard him lecture the world about
preserving nature in the tropics when he is encouraging the
big sugar plantations to continue polluting our own

We've read candidate Gore's press releases about protecting
our beaches from offshore drilling, and then watched Vice
President Gore say it is none of his business if his own
Administration promotes offshore drilling in Florida,
California, and Alaska. We've watched Gore pretend not to
know about it when his own White House staff and the federal
agencies turn the Endangered Species Act into a tool for
extinction. And just this week we watched Al Gore refuse to
advocate breaching of four Snake River dams rejecting the
recommendations of scientists and federal agencies.

We believe that people, nature and wildlife, in the United
States and in the world, will be better protected if we
return to an honest national debate about the role of the
environment in our lives and economy, instead of the cynical
orchestrated charade Vice President Gore is engaged in."

1) We can't get what we want by voting for what we don't

2) We can't win by submitting to fear of imagined Republican

3) We can no longer condone or reward the long and
established record of dishonesty, smoke & mirrors, shell
games and betrayal.

4) We can't get good & honest people to run if we repeatedly
fail to support the ones that do.

5) We demand Fair & Open Debates - and honest politicians.

6) We demand that People and the Public Interest receive the
importance now given to corporate cash and political

7) We realize that false friends can often do more harm than
known adversaries.

Voting Our Principles & Hopes, Not Our Fears.

(affiliations listed for identification purposes only)

Cindy Allsbrooks - TX - Headwaters & NFC - 
    (409) 653-3982
Patricia Awerbuch - PA - Independent - 
    (610) 359-1931
Florence Barone - MI - Michigan Land Use Institute - 
    (231) 882-4723
Caroline Bauman - Lincoln County Chapter, Oregon LCV - 
    (541) 547-3075
Moisha Blechman - NYC Sierra Club - 
    (212) 869-1630
John Borowski - OR - Environmental Science Teacher - 
    (541) 929.5224
David Brower - CA - Sierra Club, Earth Island - 
    (415) 788-3666
Jasper Carlton - CO - Biodiversity Legal Foundation - 
    (303) 926-7606
Lee Christie - OR - Audubon and The Nature Conservancy - 
    (541) 386-8891
Patricia Clary - CA - Californians for Alternatives to
Toxics - 
    (707) >822-8497
Michael Colby - VT - Food & Water - 
    (802) 563-3300
Carla Connally - AL - Wild South - 
    (256) 974-6166
Karen Coulter - OR - Blue Mountain Biodiversity Project - 
    (541) 468-2028
Ronnie Cummins - MN - Pure Food Campaign - 
    (218) 226.4164
Murray Dailey - MI - North Woods Wilderness Recovery - 
    (906) 225-1938
David Dilworth - CA - Friends of the Forest - 
    (831) 624.6500
Michael Donnelly - OR - Friends of the Breitenbush Cascades - 
    (503) >581-2616
Melanie Duchin - AK - Greenpeace - 
    (907) 278-2502
Ray Fenner - MN - Superior Wilderness Action Network - 
    (651) 646-6277
Sara Folger - MT - Predator Conservation Alliance  - 
    (406) 587-3389
Janet Fout - OH - Huntington Tri-State Audubon - 
    (304) 522-0246
Rick Gorman - NY - Native Forest Council Regional - 
    (718) 530-5663
Dan Hamburg - CA - ex-Congressman - Voice of the Environment - 
    (707) >467-0329
Tim Hermach - OR - Native Forest Council - 
    (541) 688-2600 or 
    (541) >953-5293
Carol Hoover - AK/CA - EYAK Preservation Council - 
    (415) 454-2436
Deborah Howes - OR - Oregon Wildlife Federation - 
    (503) 286-3634
Denise Joines - WA - One Northwest - 
    (206) 286.1235 x12
Tracy Katelman - CA - EcoForester/Activist - 
    (707) 629-3599
Joe Keating - OR -Chapter Chair of Sierra Club's Oregon Chapter,
    (503) >234-2613
Don Kegley - United Steelworkers of America - 
Steve Kelly - MT - Friends of the Wild Swan - 
    (406) 586-0180
Jeff Kessler - WY - Biodiversity Associates - 
    (307) 742-7978
Leeona Klippstein - CA - Spirit of the Sage Council - 
    (626) 744-9932
Cecelia Lanman - CA - EPIC Emeritus - 
    (707) 923.3614
Martin Litton - CA - Grand Canyon Dories - 
    (415) 851-2616
Gwen Marshall - OH - Protect Biodiversity & Public Lands - 
    (513) >761-6978
Emily Miggins - CA - Founder, Re-Think Paper - 
    (510) 636-9019
David Orr - UT - Glen Canyon Action Network - 
    (435) 259-1063
David Ortman - WA - past Director,NW Office,Friends of the
    (206) >789-6136
Karen Picket - CA - Bay Area Coalition for Headwaters - 
    (510) 548-3113
Pat Rasmussen - WA - Leavenworth Audubon Adopt-a-Forest - 
    (509) 548-7640
Ruby Lee Rose - CA - Planet, Mind, Soul, Spirit - 
    (415) 868-2767
Susan Schock - NM - Gila Watch - 
    (505) 388-2854
Bryony Schwan - MT - Women's Voices for the Earth - 
    (406) 543-3747
Lewis Seiler - CA - V.O.T.E. Action Committee - 
    (415) 435-2522
Dr. Fraser Shilling, - CA - Sierra Club - 
    (530) 753-1678.
Scott Silver - OR - Wild Wilderness - 
    (541) 385-5261
Robin Smith - OH - ex-EPA, NFC Office - 
    (614) 538-9344
Jeff St Clair - OR - CounterPunch - 
    (503) 657-5295
Alan Stein - CA - Fmr Director, Salmon Bay Protective Assn. - 
    (707) >937-4700
Kent Stromsmoe - CA - Forestry Monitoring Project - 
    (925) 372-8619
Charlotte Talberth - NM - Levinson Foundation - 
    (505) 995-8802
Dr. Bron Taylor - WI - Univ of Wisconsin Oshkosh, Professor - 
    (920) >424-7183
Larry Tuttle - OR - Center for Environmental Equity - 
    (503) 221-1683
Ray Vaughan - AL - Environmentalists FOR Nader - 
    (334) 265-6529
Brian Vincent - CA - American Lands Alliance - 
    (530) 265-3506
Paul Watson - WA - Sea Shepherds - 
    (360) 370-5500
Meca Wawona - CA - New Growth Forestry - 
    (707) 462-2114
Tom Weis - CO - Greenfire - 
    (303) 245.8178
Chuck Willer - OR - Coast Range Association - 
    (541) 758.0255
Margaret Hays Young - NY - NYC Sierra Club - 
    (718) 789-0038

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Richard K Moore
Wexford, Ireland
Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance 
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