-------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: •••@••.••• Reply-To: •••@••.••• To: •••@••.••• Subject: Re: about those torture photos... Thanks, Richard! For putting into words, with URLs no less, what a number of us have been intuiting. --------- Fred, The photos had been bothering me from the beginning, and I finally felt compelled to take a break from the book. The timing was amazing, with the Col.'s stuff coming in right afterwards. cheers, rkm btw> I include your email address since you have a spam filter. -------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: about those torture photos... Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:25:27 -0700 From: "Hodgson, David" To: •••@••.••• Glad that it's not just me who thinks such things. It seems fairly self evident to me that what you say is as accurate as such a thing can be, there is a definitely an invisible civil war going on -------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brian Wills" To: "Richard K Moore" <•••@••.•••> Subject: Your 'torture' story analysis Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:53:31 +0200 Richard, Thanks for this analysis, which I find credible, with all its disquieting implications, especially your: "My suspicion was that there is some kind of struggle emerging in high-level circles. Circles high enough to get leaks published and high enough to infiltrate the prison and initiate the photo activity." For me it endorses the fact that the BBC World Service news, maybe about a week ago, surprisingly quoted the words of Pat Buchanan (arch 'old' con) attacking the Bush administration for its misjudgements over Iraq. I haven't looked back at BBC news archives to identify the item. But it may still be there, should you be interested to it follow up. It was one of those occasions when one says "Hey, THAT's a big surprise" and then expect to see something more in newsprint the following day. But our daily Guardian didn't seem to pick it up -- or I just missed it. Anyway, as it strengthens your thesis, it might be worth investigating, because it almost sounded as if Buchanan was pre-empting the kind of things Kerry may soon have the courage to say! Weird ... Brian ---------- Brian, Buchanan is far enough off the mainstream that he can speak his mind honestly. I don't agree with many of his values, but those values do lead him to look at the administration critically. Kerry is a politician.If he started telling the truth he'd be out of a job. rkm -------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony To: •••@••.••• Subject: Re: * FLASH - military coup underway * Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:55:17 +0100 Richard, Amazing stuff! Naturally, there are always struggles for power at the top, but the interesting thing you point out is that this one would be overt - we could all see it clearly. What would an event like this mean for any progressive 'movement'? --------- Dear Tony, I think we are already seeing it. The coup is already in progress. The oldcons would not have launched the photo campaign if they didn't already have their defensive measures and follow-up steps in place. This is because the neocon's reaction to the onslaught of publicity could be unpredictable. They might feel their whole program is disintegrating and lash out wildly in response. The neocons overt bases of power have been chain-of-command and control over media spin. With those they've prevailed over the old-cons in the Pentagon and Congress. With the photos they've lost control of spin, and now that the sword has been unsheathed, they cannot rely on chain-of-command either. Their only options are to ride it out and take the consequences, or else revert to the covert coalition that pulled off the 9/11 caper. That would presumably involve Pakistani Intelligence, some loyal domestic elements, and Mossad. But as I suggested above, no responsible military planner would launch the media campaign without first making sure measures were in place to deal with likely responses from the White House. If a new "terrorist" incident were to occur, I'm sure the planning includes the immediate taking over of media networks, the isolation of the White House team, and the implementation of a FEMA-type response to the incident itself. The neocons know this, so they're not likely to try anything. As regards what this means for a progressive movement, or even for global transformation, it's hard to say. It depends on what kind of changes are being sought by the coup leadership. Maybe they just want Bush out, the neocons blamed for the war crimes, and a private agreement with Kerry. That would leave our basic situation unchanged. But perhaps they have bigger changes in mind. Perhaps they want more independence from civilian agencies. Perhaps some kind of Constitutional review might emerge. We can only await developments. rkm -------------------------------------------------------- ate: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:32:52 -0700 To: •••@••.••• From: Larry Tesler Subject: Re: * FLASH - military coup underway * Richard, There is so much fantasy on the Internet. Totally concocted stories. This smells like one. Not that we don't get concocted stories from other media... Larry ----------- Dear Larry, I'm glad to see you're tracking the list. You're so right about fantasy on the net. There's all sorts. There are wild ideas by sincere people, there are concocted ideas uploaded by anonymous pranksters, and their are intentional deceptions that include enough true insider information to capture the imagination of the conspiracy theory community, who then discredit themselves when they fall for it. There's also a lot of good information on the net as well. Indeed, the net is as diverse as the world and the people in it. Whether something comes from the net or not says nothing about its credibility or lack thereof. In each case, you've got to look at the material critically. Who wrote it? How credible are they? Does what they say make sense? Do they seem to be speaking from a sound mind? Do their facts match up with known facts? If they ascribe motive to anyone, does that match our understanding of that person and their interests? Unless material passes those kinds of tests adequately, I don't give it much attention. The Col. (DGP) and his testimony are a very interesting example of a piece requiring such an authentication process. Certainly some of his claims, seen for the first time, seem bizarre. Even if true, one must still wonder how the writer could know that. I don't know if you read my previous posting, about the torture photos. In that posting I quoted from a few mainstream news article I had found on the net, which had been published in major newspapers. Some of those illustrated the extent to which the torture revelations are escalating, indicating that public opinion is going to grow increasingly hostile to the neocons and Bush. This represents a major shift in the mainstream media's relationship to the administration. Another of the articles, from a very well-connected and reputable journalist, basically said that top elements in the Pentagon, the CIA, and the Senate are determined to see that blame for the war crimes goes where it is deserved--implying the White House. Another article announced that the Senate hearings are not going to be a white wash - they're going to keep digging until they get the ultimate perps, again implying the White House. Taking all of that together, I said in the posting that I strongly suspected some kind of power struggle was going on in top-level circles. Elements of the media establishment, the Senate, the CIA, and the Pentagon seemed to be collaborating to bring down the administration. The articles ascribed that intention to them and showed those intentions being played out. In addition to that, in previous postings, I had explored some of the evidence regarding 9/11. There is much solid evidence, and it points incontrovertibly to an inside job. Once you begin to think in terms of an inside job, that shifts your thinking about what is bizarre and what isn't. If you want a plane to hit a building, and not miss or go astray on route, and if this is a critical part of your mission, then you don't trust the job to trainee pilots.That would be foolish. Nor are you likely to find a skilled military pilot who wants the honor of going kamakazi. Remote control, rather than being bizarre, is the obvious choice. I've seen reports from many sources, including mainstream newspapers, that commercial airliners in the U.S. have long been fitted with remote-control takeover equipment--as a counter-hijacking measure. Even if such devices weren't routinely installed, it would be easy enough to install them on the planes intended to be used in the mission. So from my perspective, DGP's allegations made a great deal of sense, and they fit my understanding of the likely facts and the motivations of the people involved. I had also heard about him before, and his informal analysis of the attack planes carried out by a gathering of top pilots. The earlier report I read was from a usually reliable source and it seemed to give the report considerable credibility. In addition, I received the interview initially not through the net, but in print form from someone I've been corresponding with for some time. This person has met the Col.: _______________________________________ From: Evelyn Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:55:56 EDT Subject: Re: Col. Donn de Grand Pre To: •••@••.••• You don't know how good it is to hear you say this. Sometimes I feel as though I am the only one who is aware of the truth, and even then, I have to reinforce my thinking. When I spoke with the Colonel, in person, I found him to be a wonderful, believable, down to earth person, in an atmosphere of loving surroundings. Made me feel so glad I had made the effort to detour and see him. _______________________________________ So for the time being, until new evidence emerges, I'm willing to take the interview at more or less face value as a "current working hypothesis". With that hypothesis in mind, I'll be looking for indications one way or the other in the daily news. Will Bush start backing down? Will he start sacrificing his entourage? Will the Senate hearings get nasty? Will some of the neocon policies in Iraq be changed? Will there be non-neocon approved command replacements? Will we see the phrase "military tribunal" hinted at in any mainstream sources? As these kind of things happen or don't happen, it should become clear what is going down. The media events will carry more meaning, based on the background perspective we got from the Col. Thanks for writing in, rkm -- ============================================================ If you find this material useful, you might want to check out our website (http://cyberjournal.org) or try out our low-traffic, moderated email list by sending a message to: •••@••.••• You are encouraged to forward any material from the lists or the website, provided it is for non-commercial use and you include the source and this disclaimer. Richard Moore (rkm) Wexford, Ireland _____________________________ "...the Patriot Act followed 9-11 as smoothly as the suspension of the Weimar constitution followed the Reichstag fire." - Srdja Trifkovic There is not a problem with the system. The system is the problem. 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